Entry: Technical Addendum to "RAW Bits" Friday, January 11, 2008



 

In order to maximize impact, and to clearly convey the Big Clue, I have deliberately simplified the picture presented in "RAW Bits - and Credo".  Since I suspect few are interested in these "details", I am appending them here under a false date and time to prevent them from driving away new readers.  The following, in short, may be a little dry.

A great deal about us cannot be attributed to the effects of experience, or even of reflection, but must necessarily be attributed to inherent properties of the human nervous system.  If Kant is to be believed, many of these are necessary preconditions for the existence of any  individuated conscious mind.  In any case, we do manifestly have them, and in some cases the neural infrastructure is fairly well known, or in the process of being investigated.

Regarding that cabbage, it is fair to say that its cabbagehood and the matrices of import in which that quality is embedded are, as claimed, learned.  However, much of the construction of that object is due to inherent mechanisms.  We come into our lives with significant brain structures devoted to language, and to perception.  Associated with these are inherent functions of reasoning, and, as it were, of world-mapping.  We necesssarily experience the world in space and time.  This immediately implies such concepts as location (and associated with this, distance, size, shape, etc.), sequence, simultaneity, and (arguably) causation and explanation.  Language in particular requires the capacity to oganize perceptions under concepts, to divide the spatial field into discrete objects, to attribute properties to these, and to conceive of matters in terms of structures and processes.  And let's not forget identity, similarity, affirmation, negation, number, and difference.  (And there are others!)  All of this is largely pre-reflective, and already built into our immediate perceptions, quite apart from any learned interpretive framework of the sort I attribute to "Shepherds".  Reflection, an important component of which is reasoning, also supplies us with widely-applicable conceptual tools such as consistency and implication, which also severly constrain us - though this can hardly be seen as a bad thing!  Again, no "Shepherds are required for this.

A major task for the best sort of "Good Shepherds" - philosophers - has been the careful delineation of best practices for the construction of our individual and culturally-shared "worlds".  A broad consensus among the better contemporary epistemologists such as Quine (referred to in the original post) provides an attractive account of the better sort of world-making, which importantly constrains the excavation of reality tunnels according to minimal, but strict, standards of rationality (like consistency), which govern not only the internal relationships between our various ideas, but also the relationships between our internal map of reality and the ongoing stream of sensory experience.  Fully embracing modern science as embodying our most refined - and successful - forms of knowing the field of experience, they provide a robust model of revision and reorganization of our "world" which allows us to continually or periodically rebuild our reality-tunnels.  Since this rebuilding is constrained by the direct evidence of experience, by the careful incoporation of observations by others, and by those logical constrants whose abandonment would make any  type of world-building completely arbitrary, it is reasonable to suppose that a world constructed according to this plan is as close as possible to the presumed objective order underlying our sensations and our inner lives.  (It should be noted that the incorporation of others' observations is, itself, subject to the constraints provided by direct experience and reasoning, which provides some protection against "Bad Shepherds".)  The assumption of an underlying order is, perhaps, unfounded, but without it, there is actually nothing left for us to do at all, and so, in order to be able to conduct our daily affairs (like buying cabbages at the grocery store), we have to go with something - and this is the something we have.

Triangulating between these observations, and those in "Raw Bits", it is clear that we are still very much in the thrall, first of all of our hard-wired mental structures, and secondly of the "Shepherds" of whatever Fold we find ourselves in.  Nonetheless, we have quite a bit of room in which to manoeuver.  For all that the "philosophic" model provided above may seem to commit us to dull and relatively conservative "reality-tunnels", the sheer fact of the matter is that not one in a thousand people actually tries it  to see what results obtain.  These are in fact quite radical, as many common conceptions will not survive this trial by fire, and many matters commonly considered uncontroversial are revealed as so far unsettled - thereby requiring suspension of judgement, and gifting us with the sort of opened mind that can with great excitement freely expect that even the most remarkable things may yet happen, and that even the most outlandish claims may yet be true.

Or kill me!

 

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   8 comments

Jeremiadist
February 7, 2008   05:00 AM PST
 
unixdj - (PART II) To more directly address your concerns - I agree that self-awareness is a complex and probably emergent property, and that it's a live question whether large-scale complex systems like the Earth's biosphere have it. I do not agree without further warrant that consciousness as such is complex, and I think that we are so embedded in ways of thinking of the mind as separate from the body that we make it more "spooky" than it probably is. also, I don't necessarily think the "self" as such has much more meaning than the body and such phenomena as are co-located with it. The ego in particular just seems to me a concatenation of ideas and impressions connected to the body and the names associated with it - not only "Jeremiadist" or "unixdj", but also "you" and "I", etc.

As for the Eight-circuit Model - it helps make some useful distinctions and clarifies considerably "what is happening here, in this behavior or interaction?" admirably. It does have the appearance of colonic origin, however...
Jeremiadist
February 7, 2008   04:37 AM PST
 
unixdj - Thank you, first of all, for continuing the conversation. This issues being huge, the rest of this comment is necessarily somewhat telegraphic.

I think the overall thrust of your comment is both reet and righteous. In particular, if we accept the most popular wild-ass guess currently going (among people whose opinion we give a shit about) - that is, (within an isomorphism) that consciousness is an emergent property of complex information-processing and/or decision-making systems with inputs and outputs - well, we have to ask: what are the criteria? The Sun after all is massively complex, has all sorts of reciprocating internal movements, energy exchanges, ample numbers of subunits, and exchanges energy with its environment... The Earth, numerically less complex, nonetheless has a more stable and richly articulated internal structure, and, unlike the Sun, takes in a lot more than it gives out. What's more, we know that the Earth is complex enough to support consciousness, because we are part of it and we are conscious. And, since we are part of it, it is more complex than each of us is individually. Arguments against Earthly consciousness hinge (regardless of whether they've been made yet, this is where they'd have to go) on there being particular sorts of structures, connections among subunits, and inputs and outputs, etc. All of which sounds great, except that these conditions are not specified, and are utterly hypothetical and amount to saying - yes, but it can't be right because the Earth is not like an individual ape! And yet, these same folks will argue for the theoretical possibility of AI (which I also endorse).

I remain agnostic on the matter - both the matter of larger-scale systems developing emergent consciousness, and the matter of whether consciousness is emergent. Too many folks take a basically dualistic - even Cartesian - approach here. Consciousness is seen as a receptivity within which mental content appears - or as a spectator watching actors (mental content) on the stage. I suspect rather that consciousness is an attribute that mental content has - as when we contrast a conscious motive to an unconscious one. (Continuity of the self - identity - is easily handled by reference to the body as a temporary but stable frame of reference.) Self-consciousness obviously requires some sort of feedback structure, but I think it is not unreasonable to suppose that it is preceded by pre-reflexive consciousness - the sort of basic mindedness we might imagine in a skink or something. This is such a simple property that I don't see the need for much fancy machinery - or rather, I don't know how any amount of machinery could produce it. This means, of course, that I DON'T KNOW! And that's the honest answer to give. But people don't, insofar as they rule out at least one reasonable hypothesis: that this base mentality is an inherent property of everything - an elegant hypothesis, if unwarranted. It is hard for me to resist the flashy hypotheses - it would be satisfying to live within such beliefs. But, for the moment, I remain agnostic.
unixdj
February 6, 2008   11:08 AM PST
 
One of the problems with talking about awareness is that it's ill-defined. Wikipedia defines self-awareness as "the explicit understanding that one exists", and it defines understanding using words like "thinking" and "concepts".

This seems to require lots of processing power, so very simple mechanisms (such as a neutrino) probably don't have it. And we don't have criteria of awareness that can help us distinguish between mechanisms that have it from those who don't by watching their behaviour (and bacteria run awfully complex schemes against each other). Also, is it a bit (you either have it, or you don't), or is it relative (80% self-awareness in humans)? Does it, as bad science fiction claims, emerge in complex systems?

But let's not lower ourselves to viruses and dirt, but try to go up instead. Does the Earth's ecosystem have self-awareness? The planet itself? Or maybe a galaxy? The Net (bad science fiction again)? You can't really say any of these aren't self-aware because they're "mechanical", or whatever -- we're no less "mechanical" than an atom, a galaxy or an implementation of "hello, world" in your favourite programming language, yet we (claim to) have it. (The shell one-liner "echo I\'m self-aware" also does.) (Wikipedia notes that self-awareness "remains a critical mystery in neurology, philosophy, psychology, biology, and artificial intelligence".)

I agree with you that being a RAW cultist is Missing The Point Completely; we all know that Greg and Kerry are Her only prophets, the latter of whom called RAW "an author of fiction -- and a bald-headed liar, besides". That said, I read _PR_ once, and the Eight Circuits seem like a reasonable model which basically makes sense. I understand that on the basic level it's not too far removed from what neural researches think about the brain (layers, etc.), but I definitely wouldn't trust the details to be the Absolute Truth.
jeremiadist
February 4, 2008   04:59 AM PST
 
unixdj - Thanks a lot for reading everything. It is gratifying to have such quality folks squander their time on me. More to the point, what's life without interesting conversation?

As for the contiuum of awareness - that granted, does it attenuate to zero before it reaches flies? Amoebas? Mushrooms? (Bear in mind that fungi are more closely related to animals that to plants.) And how about plants? Microbes? Viruses? Dirt? Elemental hydrogen? Vacuum?

I have read Prometheus Rising, but can't evaluate it properly, not having done all the exercizes yet. Muchly annoyed I am, however, at RAW cultists who resolutely ignore his frequent exhortations to regard every model he offers as - a model, to be explored for its usefulness, no more. They tend to regard the Eight Circuits with pious faith usually reserved for the Ten Commandments...

What do you think of it?
unixdj
January 30, 2008   09:43 AM PST
 
Glad to have *you* here. I got here from Singlenesia, read the post about Pascal's wager, read some more posts and eventually just started from the beginning. It's surprising to see how close the thoughts in some of your postings are to the conclusions I reached earlier (although there's still lots of suprising stuff to keep me interested).

Flies survive without any reflection as species, not as individuals. Still, it's possible to survive quite well without reflection at all, as you point out, so my comment about distinguishing between groups of animals being essential to survival may not be true -- one should just act correctly most of the time, and as a programmer I know how sloppy you can be if you just need a solution that works more than half of the time.

Your theory about a continuum of self-awareness seems logical, if just because every other physiological feature (sight, flight, ...) seems to have various degrees of implementation and configuration completeness in different animals. E.g., the aforementioned cat doesn't see as well as I do, except that she sees well enough in what seems like total darkness to me; flies don't see well at all.

While we're on the subject of animal consciousness commenting on a post about RAW, have you read his _Prometheus Rising_? It's quite amusing.
jeremiadist
January 27, 2008   02:28 PM PST
 
unixdj - glad to have you here.
I think I may have expressed myself vaguely. To be more explicit - language doesn't *cause* us to apprehend discrete objects, and think in terms of identity, similarity, etc. It *requires*, as a precondition for us to be able to have (or develop) language, that we already have these functions in place. So that, if you have language, this provides evidence that you have the prerequisistes in place - just like speaking provides evidence that you have a tongue.

As for other animals, I imagine that some of them are fairly sophisticated about planning, etc., as you point out. Flies, I think, survive quite well with NO IDEA what they are doing. As long as your behavioral repertoire is pretty simple, and you can afford to reproduce enough that most of your kids can die, conscious refelection is far from necessary... It's tricky to draw the line bwtween cats and flies - which is why it's often safer to avoid speculation as to what's going on under the hood. For myself, I suppose there's a continuum of (self-)awareness, and that it presumably just keeps on attenuating all the way down...
unixdj
January 27, 2008   07:02 AM PST
 
"Language in particular requires the capacity to oganize perceptions under concepts, to divide the spatial field into discrete objects, to attribute properties to these, and to conceive of matters in terms of structures and processes."

I don't think it's language, actually. My cat can't speak, but she can divide the spacial field into discrete objects (and hunt some of these). Not sure what you mean by structures and processes, but she understands that actions may have semi-consistent implications (you meow, you get food; you scratch someone, you get shouted on).

"And let's not forget identity, similarity, affirmation, negation, number, and difference."

Identity, similarity and difference don't seem to be tied to language too closely either. It seems to me that the capability to distinguish between groups of animals is essential to survival. You have to be able to decide whether the other animal is edible, dangerous, friendly or capable of flying. The number, to a certain amount, is important as well -- Are all my children here? Will three birds be enough to feed all of them? Are there too many dogs to pass safely?
J f Z
January 15, 2008   02:39 AM PST
 
You might enjoy reading, "Proust and the Squid" by Maryanne Wolf. It's about how we're not genetically wired for reading, dyslexia, and the new era of digital text (how that changes how people read)....

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